1 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:03,290 hi everyone welcome to podcast UFO 4 2 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:07,770 episode number 22 with dr. Seth Shostak 3 00:00:13,669 --> 00:00:10,130 he is the senior astronomer at SETI 4 00:00:16,189 --> 00:00:13,679 listen in for a friendly debate on UFOs 5 00:00:18,980 --> 00:00:16,199 a couple of announcements you can follow 6 00:00:21,260 --> 00:00:18,990 us on Twitter or you can like us on our 7 00:00:23,630 --> 00:00:21,270 brand new Facebook page and those icons 8 00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:23,640 are right on our website if you'd like 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:27,390 to contact me that's info at podcast UFO 10 00:00:45,890 --> 00:00:30,210 comm thank you for listening and I hope 11 00:00:54,030 --> 00:00:50,010 hi everyone I'm on skype with senior 12 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:54,040 astronomer of SETI dr. Seth Shostak how 13 00:00:58,140 --> 00:00:56,890 are you Seth just fine Martin and I'm 14 00:01:00,900 --> 00:00:58,150 calling you in Mountain View are you 15 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:00,910 California I am yes harder the Silicon 16 00:01:05,969 --> 00:01:03,070 Valley or maybe just it's the pancreas 17 00:01:08,190 --> 00:01:05,979 of the Silicon Valley I actually lived 18 00:01:09,780 --> 00:01:08,200 north of there and there I remember 19 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:09,790 Mountain View as some beautiful homes 20 00:01:14,730 --> 00:01:12,729 really nice area it's not too bad we 21 00:01:15,750 --> 00:01:14,740 have you know the Googleplex is here 22 00:01:17,609 --> 00:01:15,760 that a lot of other companies that 23 00:01:20,219 --> 00:01:17,619 people may have heard of if they're 24 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:20,229 among the digerati yes it's a nice place 25 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:22,240 yes I lived in Tiburon north of there 26 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:25,050 that's even nicer sounds pretty nice I 27 00:01:29,999 --> 00:01:27,490 would like to talk to you about UFOs 28 00:01:31,530 --> 00:01:30,009 quite a bit today but first of all I'm 29 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:31,540 thrilled to have an astronomer on 30 00:01:36,030 --> 00:01:33,550 because I've been a fan of astronomy 31 00:01:37,950 --> 00:01:36,040 before we talk about UFOs there's just a 32 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:37,960 couple of questions I have I'm going to 33 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:39,550 be a little bit hypothetical here and 34 00:01:43,170 --> 00:01:41,170 there but do you ever think there's a 35 00:01:45,139 --> 00:01:43,180 chance another theory will come along 36 00:01:48,210 --> 00:01:45,149 that'll just prove the Big Bang Theory 37 00:01:50,940 --> 00:01:48,220 well you know one should never say never 38 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:50,950 when it comes to such things but the 39 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:55,090 history of science and in particular the 40 00:01:58,290 --> 00:01:56,770 evidence that's presented for the Big 41 00:02:00,990 --> 00:01:58,300 Bang suggests that the Big Bang 42 00:02:03,749 --> 00:02:01,000 yes is it's going to survive now it's 43 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:03,759 undoubtedly gonna be modified it's it's 44 00:02:10,350 --> 00:02:07,890 somewhat akin I think to Newton's 45 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:10,360 dynamics you know when Newton worked out 46 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:12,030 the law of gravitation and what kept the 47 00:02:17,190 --> 00:02:14,140 planets in orbit and that sort of thing 48 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:17,200 back in around 1600 whatever all right 49 00:02:21,900 --> 00:02:19,510 that you know explained a lot of things 50 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:21,910 it wasn't quite right it turns out it 51 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:23,650 didn't include general relativity he 52 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:25,360 didn't know about that and general 53 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:27,010 relativity makes some slight 54 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:29,920 modifications to Newton's laws but 55 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:33,250 Newton works you know in 99.9% of all 56 00:02:37,170 --> 00:02:35,170 the cases that are germane to for 57 00:02:39,059 --> 00:02:37,180 example engineering here on earth and 58 00:02:41,550 --> 00:02:39,069 even for explaining the motions of the 59 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:41,560 planets they're you know very very good 60 00:02:46,710 --> 00:02:44,110 so you know it isn't that Newton was 61 00:02:50,430 --> 00:02:46,720 really wrong or that you know the whole 62 00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:50,440 idea was was overthrown later it was 63 00:02:53,550 --> 00:02:52,030 simply modified I think in the case of 64 00:02:55,230 --> 00:02:53,560 the Big Bang you know there things about 65 00:02:56,970 --> 00:02:55,240 the Big Bang we don't understand the 66 00:02:58,140 --> 00:02:56,980 early inflation and so forth seems to 67 00:02:59,880 --> 00:02:58,150 explain stuff and 68 00:03:01,770 --> 00:02:59,890 this that and the other will it go away 69 00:03:04,170 --> 00:03:01,780 I don't think so because you can see the 70 00:03:06,089 --> 00:03:04,180 the universe is expanding you know you 71 00:03:07,770 --> 00:03:06,099 can see the the fact that there's so 72 00:03:09,839 --> 00:03:07,780 much helium in the universe and so forth 73 00:03:12,030 --> 00:03:09,849 and so on there are all these pieces of 74 00:03:14,039 --> 00:03:12,040 evidence that support the Big Bang it 75 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:14,049 will be modified but I don't think it's 76 00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:17,620 going away now if you had to come up 77 00:03:20,910 --> 00:03:19,120 with something of what was happening 78 00:03:23,849 --> 00:03:20,920 before the Big Bang what would that be 79 00:03:26,789 --> 00:03:23,859 and then we can move on to before the 80 00:03:28,679 --> 00:03:26,799 Big Bang yeah actually we're we're gonna 81 00:03:32,099 --> 00:03:28,689 do a show about that with that exact 82 00:03:33,569 --> 00:03:32,109 title actually for our weekly sideshow 83 00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:33,579 here a big picture science action and 84 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:35,440 but the thing is nobody knows they're 85 00:03:41,069 --> 00:03:38,260 there all sorts of scenarios and and and 86 00:03:44,220 --> 00:03:41,079 the most I think trendy answer to your 87 00:03:47,849 --> 00:03:44,230 question these days is probably the idea 88 00:03:50,009 --> 00:03:47,859 that there is sort of endless inflation 89 00:03:52,259 --> 00:03:50,019 in other words endless Big Bang's going 90 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:52,269 on all the time in our universe or 91 00:03:57,119 --> 00:03:55,090 perhaps other universes and that you 92 00:03:58,649 --> 00:03:57,129 know the Big Bang while very dramatic 93 00:04:01,020 --> 00:03:58,659 for us you know that kind of thing 94 00:04:04,379 --> 00:04:01,030 happens all the time we're not the only 95 00:04:05,789 --> 00:04:04,389 place in the sort of meta cosmos where 96 00:04:07,170 --> 00:04:05,799 there's been a big bang that these 97 00:04:08,939 --> 00:04:07,180 things happen all the time and in fact 98 00:04:10,379 --> 00:04:08,949 you know you might cause a big bang 99 00:04:12,119 --> 00:04:10,389 right there in the room you're sitting 100 00:04:14,399 --> 00:04:12,129 in if you only knew how to twist time 101 00:04:16,409 --> 00:04:14,409 and space the right way you might cause 102 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:16,419 the creation of a whole new universe of 103 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:17,650 course you wouldn't see it you wouldn't 104 00:04:20,339 --> 00:04:19,180 be able to get into it but you know you 105 00:04:22,020 --> 00:04:20,349 could do that and maybe that's what's 106 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:22,030 happening we're just another ant in the 107 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:24,849 ant colony that's possible mm-hmm 108 00:04:30,089 --> 00:04:27,970 now I've heard you say that astronomy is 109 00:04:32,969 --> 00:04:30,099 an observational science which makes 110 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:32,979 perfect sense to me our solar system is 111 00:04:38,149 --> 00:04:35,620 on the young side wouldn't you say as 112 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:38,159 far as other solar systems in our galaxy 113 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:40,930 well yeah I mean the solar system is 114 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:42,430 four-and-a-half billion years old the 115 00:04:48,810 --> 00:04:47,050 the the universe is 13.7 billion years 116 00:04:50,939 --> 00:04:48,820 old something like that our galaxy is 117 00:04:53,370 --> 00:04:50,949 probably 12 billion years old so yeah 118 00:04:56,129 --> 00:04:53,380 art our solar system has appeared in the 119 00:04:58,339 --> 00:04:56,139 last if you will 35 percent of the 120 00:05:01,140 --> 00:04:58,349 history of our galaxy so it's a 121 00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:01,150 relatively new kid on the block mm-hmm 122 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:04,449 so with that in mind wouldn't you say 123 00:05:10,409 --> 00:05:06,610 that it is very possible that we could 124 00:05:11,730 --> 00:05:10,419 be visited by other civilizations well 125 00:05:13,620 --> 00:05:11,740 it doesn't violate anything 126 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:13,630 I mean there are probably civilizations 127 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:15,310 out there that are way in advance of 128 00:05:19,650 --> 00:05:17,890 ours so yeah I mean it's certainly 129 00:05:21,330 --> 00:05:19,660 possible I don't actually think that 130 00:05:22,530 --> 00:05:21,340 there's much controversy about that I've 131 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:22,540 never heard anybody say it it's 132 00:05:27,750 --> 00:05:25,210 impossible I never hear that argument 133 00:05:29,370 --> 00:05:27,760 the argument against being visited 134 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:29,380 actually doesn't have to do with the 135 00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:30,850 physics of whether it's possible it has 136 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:33,820 mostly to do with the evidence and what 137 00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:35,260 type of evidence do you think would be 138 00:05:40,620 --> 00:05:38,260 good enough well I think you just have 139 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:40,630 to look at historic precedent for that 140 00:05:45,990 --> 00:05:42,910 you know I often like to say you know 141 00:05:49,860 --> 00:05:46,000 it's been what 65 years since Roswell 142 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:49,870 one of the more celebrated incidents 143 00:05:53,790 --> 00:05:52,330 which some people believe show that the 144 00:05:57,060 --> 00:05:53,800 aliens were trying to visit or something 145 00:05:58,590 --> 00:05:57,070 now if you add 65 years to 1492 what do 146 00:06:01,020 --> 00:05:58,600 you come up with fifteen fifty seven or 147 00:06:03,090 --> 00:06:01,030 something like that if you ask the North 148 00:06:04,380 --> 00:06:03,100 American natives the Indians here hey do 149 00:06:06,410 --> 00:06:04,390 you think you're visiting being visited 150 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:06,420 by Spaniards and you ask them that in 151 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:11,650 1557 that wouldn't be an an ambiguous 152 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:13,810 thing to discuss they would know that 153 00:06:17,730 --> 00:06:15,880 the answer was yes because there are 154 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:17,740 some right over there and by the way 155 00:06:21,150 --> 00:06:19,240 there's a cathedral the building down 156 00:06:22,890 --> 00:06:21,160 the street here and by the way a whole 157 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:22,900 bunch of us have died from some European 158 00:06:27,030 --> 00:06:25,330 diseases and and and others are slaves 159 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:27,040 and so the evidence was absolutely 160 00:06:31,830 --> 00:06:30,430 overwhelming now so if you ask well what 161 00:06:33,450 --> 00:06:31,840 sort of evidence would prove that we're 162 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:33,460 being visited I would say something that 163 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:35,410 you could stack up in the Smithsonian at 164 00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:37,450 least I would think it would be much 165 00:06:41,730 --> 00:06:39,430 much more than that but but let's say at 166 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:41,740 a minimum something that you know you 167 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:44,650 could put in the local science museum so 168 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:47,710 you wouldn't consider witnesses so many 169 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:49,750 witnesses say for instance astronaut 170 00:06:55,350 --> 00:06:52,690 Gordon Cooper and former governor Fife 171 00:06:56,670 --> 00:06:55,360 Symington and people like that what 172 00:06:59,070 --> 00:06:56,680 would you say about them being as 173 00:07:00,480 --> 00:06:59,080 observers oh well I don't think that 174 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:00,490 they're professional observers I mean 175 00:07:04,350 --> 00:07:02,410 it's it's not that I'm impugning their 176 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:04,360 integrity I've talked with a lot of the 177 00:07:07,980 --> 00:07:06,190 astronauts either Mitchell and Gene 178 00:07:09,630 --> 00:07:07,990 Cernan and all these guys you know and 179 00:07:11,580 --> 00:07:09,640 if you talk to them about these things 180 00:07:12,780 --> 00:07:11,590 to begin with usually it's secondhand 181 00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:12,790 they haven't actually seen these things 182 00:07:16,230 --> 00:07:14,590 themselves they heard somebody else talk 183 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:16,240 about it but even if they have seen them 184 00:07:19,350 --> 00:07:17,860 themselves you know story Musgrave 185 00:07:21,690 --> 00:07:19,360 thought he heard the aliens and the 186 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:21,700 muffin fans in the in the space shuttle 187 00:07:24,710 --> 00:07:24,310 okay I I don't think he's lying I don't 188 00:07:27,230 --> 00:07:24,720 think he 189 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:27,240 making something up but I don't consider 190 00:07:30,710 --> 00:07:28,890 that very good evidence and in fact 191 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:30,720 anybody who's in forensics will tell you 192 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:32,250 that witness testimony is about the 193 00:07:36,830 --> 00:07:33,710 poorest kind of evidence there is 194 00:07:38,420 --> 00:07:36,840 particularly in science in science just 195 00:07:40,310 --> 00:07:38,430 because somebody thinks they've seen 196 00:07:41,750 --> 00:07:40,320 something that doesn't prove its 197 00:07:44,030 --> 00:07:41,760 existence all it means is that they've 198 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:44,040 seen something you know capital cases 199 00:07:48,710 --> 00:07:46,890 homicide cases in the courts witness 200 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:48,720 testimony never sends anybody to the 201 00:07:52,220 --> 00:07:50,730 chair right unless you got twenty weeks 202 00:07:54,050 --> 00:07:52,230 since there's something like that all 203 00:07:56,540 --> 00:07:54,060 saying the same thing in all independent 204 00:07:58,250 --> 00:07:56,550 it's it's it's very poor evidence what 205 00:08:00,650 --> 00:07:58,260 you need is physical evidence how about 206 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:00,660 the landing trace evidence for instance 207 00:08:04,430 --> 00:08:02,450 Bentwaters are you familiar with that 208 00:08:07,370 --> 00:08:04,440 well are you talking about the 209 00:08:09,380 --> 00:08:07,380 Rendlesham forest mm-hmm yeah no I've 210 00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:09,390 read a lot about that and I've actually 211 00:08:13,610 --> 00:08:11,520 been to the Rendlesham forest and I 212 00:08:15,590 --> 00:08:13,620 don't see anything there that that in 213 00:08:16,820 --> 00:08:15,600 the slightest convinces me that aliens 214 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:16,830 were involved there 215 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:17,970 you know there's explanation for 216 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:19,710 everything that occurred in the 217 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:22,290 Rendlesham forest incident that doesn't 218 00:08:26,690 --> 00:08:24,930 involve aliens at all so given the 219 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:26,700 choice between alright here's an 220 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:28,650 explanation and it accords with the 221 00:08:31,850 --> 00:08:30,450 facts but it doesn't involve aliens or 222 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:31,860 here's this other explanation that there 223 00:08:35,870 --> 00:08:33,810 was some you know aliens who decided to 224 00:08:37,940 --> 00:08:35,880 visit the eastern part of England and 225 00:08:41,570 --> 00:08:37,950 then just leave and not actually you 226 00:08:42,740 --> 00:08:41,580 know leave behind a hubcap or something 227 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:42,750 you know something that I could put in 228 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:44,940 the on exhibition Road in London at the 229 00:08:49,790 --> 00:08:47,730 Museum I'm gonna go for the simpler 230 00:08:51,740 --> 00:08:49,800 explanation I don't totally agree with 231 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:51,750 you on that you know been doing where's 232 00:08:55,340 --> 00:08:53,490 the radiation trace evidence there was 233 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:55,350 marks in the ground that perfectly 234 00:09:00,380 --> 00:08:57,450 measured in a triangular form that there 235 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:00,390 was the witness testimony of people that 236 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:04,110 are in charge of nuclear arms you know 237 00:09:08,930 --> 00:09:06,330 it's just there's just so many things in 238 00:09:10,970 --> 00:09:08,940 that case but earlier just mentioned 239 00:09:13,070 --> 00:09:10,980 about the witnesses if there were 25 or 240 00:09:14,930 --> 00:09:13,080 more how about the thousands of 241 00:09:18,740 --> 00:09:14,940 witnesses in the Belgium Triangle 242 00:09:20,270 --> 00:09:18,750 incident in the in 1989 and 1990 yeah I 243 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:20,280 don't believe any of that either not 244 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:21,930 that they didn't see things that's not 245 00:09:25,340 --> 00:09:23,550 the point you know thousands of people 246 00:09:27,350 --> 00:09:25,350 saw the Phoenix lights - but that 247 00:09:28,940 --> 00:09:27,360 doesn't prove in that case that they 248 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:28,950 were actual aliens when there's another 249 00:09:32,510 --> 00:09:31,290 explanation and and it's been repeated 250 00:09:34,130 --> 00:09:32,520 over and over and over again but nobody 251 00:09:35,630 --> 00:09:34,140 seems to want to believe it that that 252 00:09:36,710 --> 00:09:35,640 doesn't do that I mean I would ask you 253 00:09:38,450 --> 00:09:36,720 why is it that there's no evidence 254 00:09:40,430 --> 00:09:38,460 that's in the Smithsonian 255 00:09:42,290 --> 00:09:40,440 I mean that that's the the remarkable 256 00:09:45,260 --> 00:09:42,300 thing to me about this is that one 257 00:09:48,020 --> 00:09:45,270 really good case would prove it yes and 258 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:48,030 that may that may happen and that it may 259 00:09:52,070 --> 00:09:50,040 happen but I don't think it has happened 260 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:52,080 and and I think that that's actually a 261 00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:53,970 remarkable thing because there's 262 00:09:57,950 --> 00:09:56,160 something like 10,000 reported UFO 263 00:10:00,320 --> 00:09:57,960 sightings per year I get you know a 264 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:00,330 couple of day just me but you know I 265 00:10:03,260 --> 00:10:01,650 always tell them done we don't 266 00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:03,270 investigate these things so you know you 267 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:04,980 should call up one of the organizations 268 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:07,770 that does like MUFON or something but I 269 00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:08,730 don't think any of these people are 270 00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:10,320 hoaxing me they've just seen something 271 00:10:14,210 --> 00:10:12,630 or they send me photos I have to say if 272 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:14,220 they send me photos then then I can 273 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:16,650 actually do some sort of analysis and I 274 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:19,250 usually do but if you know they've been 275 00:10:24,290 --> 00:10:22,110 ten thousand a year for a long long time 276 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:24,300 at least and those are the reported ones 277 00:10:26,810 --> 00:10:25,530 I'm sure there are many many more that 278 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:26,820 you know people just don't do anything 279 00:10:31,970 --> 00:10:30,450 about and so in these tens of thousands 280 00:10:34,670 --> 00:10:31,980 of science all you need is really one 281 00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:34,680 good one and suddenly the case would be 282 00:10:39,140 --> 00:10:37,200 made and the fact that in these tens of 283 00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:39,150 thousands there isn't a single one that 284 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:41,760 seems to have piqued the interest of the 285 00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:44,130 mainstream academic community the 286 00:10:47,810 --> 00:10:46,110 scientific community or is good enough 287 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:47,820 as I say to put in the Smithsonian I 288 00:10:52,540 --> 00:10:49,410 think that that's significant to me 289 00:10:54,740 --> 00:10:52,550 that's very significant now you read uh 290 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:54,750 Leslie Cain's book from what I 291 00:10:58,400 --> 00:10:56,610 understand I've talked with Leslie she's 292 00:11:01,070 --> 00:10:58,410 been here yes yes but did you read her 293 00:11:03,860 --> 00:11:01,080 book some of it not all of it mm-hmm and 294 00:11:05,180 --> 00:11:03,870 what what did you think of it well I 295 00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:05,190 think it's very interesting but these 296 00:11:09,650 --> 00:11:07,680 are all again anecdotes and and that's 297 00:11:12,830 --> 00:11:09,660 just not good enough for science it's 298 00:11:15,020 --> 00:11:12,840 not good enough witness testimony that 299 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:15,030 doesn't cut it and unfortunately it 300 00:11:19,010 --> 00:11:17,160 doesn't in and when I get very 301 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:19,020 frequently is people who say but you 302 00:11:22,220 --> 00:11:20,580 know these witnesses are credible 303 00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:22,230 they're airline pilots they're military 304 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:24,470 people I mean I've been on panels with 305 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:27,210 military people who you know claimed 306 00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:29,370 that they've seen the aliens buzzing our 307 00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:31,980 missile silos now on the face of it 308 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:34,800 that's a bit odd isn't it I mean if you 309 00:11:39,710 --> 00:11:38,130 could somehow visit the Romans okay 310 00:11:41,450 --> 00:11:39,720 they're two thousand years ago but 311 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:41,460 somehow you know you you you come to 312 00:11:44,420 --> 00:11:42,690 earth and you visit the Romans your 313 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:44,430 aliens and you visit the Romans all 314 00:11:47,300 --> 00:11:46,050 right so the Klingons land in two 315 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:47,310 thousand years ago let's say they did 316 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:48,930 which is just as good a time for them to 317 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:50,880 a visited as now by the way I don't 318 00:11:53,989 --> 00:11:52,410 understand why they're visiting 319 00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,999 that's another point but but let's say 320 00:11:57,710 --> 00:11:55,920 they came back and they visited the 321 00:12:00,040 --> 00:11:57,720 Romans 2,000 years ago do you think they 322 00:12:02,569 --> 00:12:00,050 would spend their time you know sort of 323 00:12:04,819 --> 00:12:02,579 walking around the place where the 324 00:12:06,859 --> 00:12:04,829 Romans built their shields and spears 325 00:12:08,569 --> 00:12:06,869 because after all you know that's their 326 00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:08,579 military technology we were to check 327 00:12:13,669 --> 00:12:11,519 that out I think it's just as kind of 328 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:13,679 silly as thinking that you know if the 329 00:12:16,850 --> 00:12:14,970 Klingons came today they would be 330 00:12:18,499 --> 00:12:16,860 interested in our Mills missile silos 331 00:12:19,970 --> 00:12:18,509 and yet you know they're plenty of 332 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:19,980 people written books about that I I 333 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:22,410 disagree because let's just throw it out 334 00:12:26,289 --> 00:12:23,970 there let's say that we are an 335 00:12:29,449 --> 00:12:26,299 experiment or we are just being watched 336 00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:29,459 you can't destroy an entire world with 337 00:12:34,039 --> 00:12:31,980 shields and swords but you certainly can 338 00:12:35,660 --> 00:12:34,049 with nuclear weapons well if we're being 339 00:12:37,789 --> 00:12:35,670 watched how are we being watched like 340 00:12:39,799 --> 00:12:37,799 you said there are 10,000 people a year 341 00:12:41,210 --> 00:12:39,809 that have sightings what you mean 342 00:12:42,650 --> 00:12:41,220 they're here and so they're watching us 343 00:12:43,939 --> 00:12:42,660 from nearby Bay because they've been 344 00:12:45,439 --> 00:12:43,949 hanging around the planet for four and a 345 00:12:46,729 --> 00:12:45,449 half billion years watching us that's 346 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:46,739 anything is possible 347 00:12:53,809 --> 00:12:52,170 unfortunately you know to say that that 348 00:12:55,249 --> 00:12:53,819 that's not very good evidence for saying 349 00:12:57,079 --> 00:12:55,259 we're being visited to say anything's 350 00:12:58,879 --> 00:12:57,089 possible yes anything's possible I mean 351 00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:58,889 it could be that you know the there 352 00:13:01,009 --> 00:13:00,360 leprechauns in Ireland I mean that's 353 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:01,019 possible 354 00:13:06,139 --> 00:13:02,730 well that's that's what you base your 355 00:13:08,359 --> 00:13:06,149 job on is anything's possible no we do 356 00:13:11,090 --> 00:13:08,369 is we say look yeah they could be out 357 00:13:12,410 --> 00:13:11,100 there that is that is a the the starting 358 00:13:14,239 --> 00:13:12,420 point and I agree with you that that is 359 00:13:16,489 --> 00:13:14,249 our starting point we do that on the 360 00:13:18,109 --> 00:13:16,499 basis of the fact that for example we 361 00:13:19,999 --> 00:13:18,119 now know they're a trillion planets in 362 00:13:21,499 --> 00:13:20,009 the Milky Way okay so you know it 363 00:13:24,019 --> 00:13:21,509 doesn't seem unreasonable that some of 364 00:13:27,039 --> 00:13:24,029 those have have spawned some sort of not 365 00:13:29,539 --> 00:13:27,049 only biology but something intelligent 366 00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:29,549 but for them to come here okay that's 367 00:13:33,169 --> 00:13:31,920 very hard it's very hard to understand 368 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:33,179 any motivation for them to come here 369 00:13:36,049 --> 00:13:34,170 because they don't know about us yet 370 00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:36,059 know that that information hasn't 371 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:38,160 reached them yet so you know it's not 372 00:13:41,869 --> 00:13:39,569 that they're interested in our nuclear 373 00:13:43,429 --> 00:13:41,879 weapons or the fact that we're may be 374 00:13:44,749 --> 00:13:43,439 messing up the environment or whatever 375 00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:44,759 they don't know any of that how would 376 00:13:48,499 --> 00:13:46,919 you know that the only way you'd know it 377 00:13:52,999 --> 00:13:48,509 is by picking up our signals you know 378 00:13:55,309 --> 00:13:53,009 television I'd I disagree I mean they 379 00:13:57,199 --> 00:13:55,319 could they could have known to explore 380 00:14:00,439 --> 00:13:57,209 our atmosphere two million years ago 381 00:14:01,669 --> 00:14:00,449 with an advanced civilization yeah but 382 00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:01,679 if they explored the atmosphere what 383 00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:02,910 would they learn what do you mean by 384 00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:05,160 exploring yeah they could see signs of 385 00:14:11,629 --> 00:14:06,620 or fill or whatever in our atmosphere 386 00:14:14,749 --> 00:14:11,639 right so the others grass here out 387 00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:14,759 there's life yeah there's life but so 388 00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:16,800 you're suggesting that two billion years 389 00:14:20,540 --> 00:14:18,720 ago they detected oxygen in our 390 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:20,550 atmosphere which indeed they could do I 391 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:21,810 mean I think anybody with a big enough 392 00:14:25,369 --> 00:14:23,610 telescope would know that there's oxygen 393 00:14:26,869 --> 00:14:25,379 in our atmosphere so they said okay 394 00:14:29,059 --> 00:14:26,879 there's a world over there 395 00:14:30,699 --> 00:14:29,069 it's got oxygen in the atmosphere Zork 396 00:14:32,420 --> 00:14:30,709 we're gonna mount an interstellar 397 00:14:33,889 --> 00:14:32,430 expedition here and we're just gonna 398 00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:33,899 hang out around that planet for two 399 00:14:38,269 --> 00:14:36,180 billion years and then finally beginning 400 00:14:40,579 --> 00:14:38,279 in 1948 we'll start making our presence 401 00:14:43,429 --> 00:14:40,589 known is that the idea not not 402 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:43,439 necessarily I mean there's there are you 403 00:14:48,019 --> 00:14:45,360 know there are drawings on caves with 404 00:14:50,269 --> 00:14:48,029 disk shaped objects who knows they might 405 00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:50,279 have been here before who is to say they 406 00:14:55,699 --> 00:14:53,220 haven't been well uh nobody that's the 407 00:14:58,639 --> 00:14:55,709 same argument anything's possible yeah 408 00:15:00,410 --> 00:14:58,649 if you talk to you know paleontologists 409 00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:00,420 or archeologists about these things in 410 00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:01,680 caves they'll say yeah they're just 411 00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:04,680 shaped objects you know my my 412 00:15:09,319 --> 00:15:07,230 three-year-old has lots of this shaped 413 00:15:11,210 --> 00:15:09,329 objects but that doesn't mean that my 414 00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:11,220 three-year-old is seeing aliens I mean 415 00:15:16,579 --> 00:15:13,350 that's not evidence here's my more or 416 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:16,589 less beef against what you do for a job 417 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:19,110 and I do appreciate I actually do 418 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:20,970 appreciate the search and the 419 00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:23,370 possibilities and I hope the first 420 00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:25,230 message you hear is we've been visiting 421 00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:26,750 you all along 422 00:15:33,050 --> 00:15:29,220 well that might be but I doubt we'll 423 00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:33,060 understand it well anyway my question is 424 00:15:38,090 --> 00:15:35,519 - how are you so sure that they're using 425 00:15:40,189 --> 00:15:38,100 radio signals I mean if they're so far 426 00:15:42,889 --> 00:15:40,199 advanced it seems like radio would be 427 00:15:44,059 --> 00:15:42,899 very very primitive well what do you 428 00:15:45,530 --> 00:15:44,069 think would be less primitive 429 00:15:46,999 --> 00:15:45,540 what do you mean less primitive other 430 00:15:48,439 --> 00:15:47,009 ways of communicating that we haven't 431 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:48,449 even thought of okay 432 00:15:52,819 --> 00:15:50,130 in other words anything's possible again 433 00:15:54,980 --> 00:15:52,829 absolutely yeah but that doesn't allow 434 00:15:58,519 --> 00:15:54,990 you to do an experiment well here's the 435 00:16:01,100 --> 00:15:58,529 you and I or mostly you are talking on 436 00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:01,110 what we know today you're not talking 437 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:05,040 about what you or our civilization may 438 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:07,410 understand in a million years advanced a 439 00:16:11,119 --> 00:16:08,970 billion years advanced even a hundred 440 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:11,129 years advanced so that's true that's 441 00:16:15,710 --> 00:16:13,920 absolutely true Martin it may be that 442 00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:15,720 radio and by the way we use radios 443 00:16:19,010 --> 00:16:18,000 because this is just the physics of the 444 00:16:20,210 --> 00:16:19,020 situation 445 00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:20,220 radio waves go right through the 446 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:21,870 interstellar gas and dust without any 447 00:16:25,550 --> 00:16:23,610 hindrance they do that at the speed of 448 00:16:29,150 --> 00:16:25,560 light which as far as we know is as fast 449 00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:29,160 as you can send information okay so if 450 00:16:33,290 --> 00:16:30,870 you just work out the cost per bit of 451 00:16:35,390 --> 00:16:33,300 sending information on a radio wave and 452 00:16:37,190 --> 00:16:35,400 the cost per bit is an energy cost of 453 00:16:38,630 --> 00:16:37,200 course if you just work that out it's 454 00:16:40,910 --> 00:16:38,640 cheaper in the radio than anything else 455 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:40,920 that we know about now your point is 456 00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:42,570 well but there are things we don't know 457 00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:44,280 well I'm sure there are things we don't 458 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:46,260 know that's absolutely so and it 459 00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:48,930 certainly is possible that ten years 460 00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:50,430 down the road a thousand years down the 461 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:51,840 road a million years down the road we 462 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:53,850 uncovered some physics that shows us 463 00:16:59,120 --> 00:16:55,410 much much better ways to communicate 464 00:17:00,740 --> 00:16:59,130 that could be that could be but all that 465 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:00,750 does I mean that doesn't help you to 466 00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:03,330 have said that because it just means 467 00:17:05,930 --> 00:17:04,800 well you better not do your experiment 468 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:05,940 here because there may be a better way 469 00:17:11,449 --> 00:17:08,730 to do it that's unless you know the 470 00:17:13,490 --> 00:17:11,459 physics of these better methods you 471 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:13,500 can't design an experiment so your 472 00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:15,450 alternative is either to just throw up 473 00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:16,500 your hands and say I'm not gonna do 474 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:18,900 anything because it might be wrong or 475 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:20,610 you do the experiment based on the 476 00:17:26,449 --> 00:17:23,010 physics you have and so that's you know 477 00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:26,459 that's why we do what we do okay so we 478 00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:28,950 really don't know for sure if everyone's 479 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:30,480 wasting their time and study that's 480 00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:32,550 really the bottom line I mean that's 481 00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,340 nice raishin its exploration it's a bit 482 00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:37,440 like asking Captain Cook you know you 483 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:39,300 could be wasting your time exploring the 484 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:40,770 South Pacific because there might not be 485 00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:42,990 any significant islands here I think 486 00:17:49,550 --> 00:17:45,840 I've heard you say before about the vast 487 00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:49,560 amount of energy need needed for a light 488 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:52,430 light speed travel I wondered if you 489 00:17:59,000 --> 00:17:55,890 were familiar with the new article that 490 00:18:01,070 --> 00:17:59,010 just came out I believe SETI and charter 491 00:18:04,670 --> 00:18:01,080 I believe was there at the conference 492 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:04,680 with dr. Harold white recently and I 493 00:18:08,030 --> 00:18:06,150 just wanted you to comment on that if 494 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:08,040 you would well I think you may be 495 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:09,540 referring to the hundred year starship 496 00:18:13,580 --> 00:18:12,690 program that that initiative is that 497 00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:13,590 what you're speaking of them yeah 498 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:15,900 searching for they warp bubbles well you 499 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:17,910 know they're very sick their various 500 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:21,810 proposals for how to either get close to 501 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:23,010 the speed of light or even beat the 502 00:18:25,550 --> 00:18:23,730 speed of light 503 00:18:27,650 --> 00:18:25,560 okay it's not clear whether any of that 504 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:27,660 physics works if you talk to the you 505 00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:29,010 know the physicists about this they say 506 00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:29,840 well you know 507 00:18:33,070 --> 00:18:31,340 I don't know it doesn't seem to work but 508 00:18:35,019 --> 00:18:33,080 maybe maybe it could be made to work but 509 00:18:37,630 --> 00:18:35,029 in any case any of these schemes require 510 00:18:39,010 --> 00:18:37,640 an enormous amounts of energy so that 511 00:18:41,470 --> 00:18:39,020 that's that's the problem with 512 00:18:42,909 --> 00:18:41,480 high-speed travel whether you talking 513 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:42,919 about going half this feat alight or 514 00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:43,970 you're talking about it and even going 515 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:45,710 faster this be like if it turns out that 516 00:18:50,919 --> 00:18:48,230 that's possible to do so 517 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:50,929 you know marshalling these huge sums of 518 00:18:55,899 --> 00:18:53,960 energy is not easy to do no matter who 519 00:18:57,700 --> 00:18:55,909 you are that's for sure but that's a 520 00:19:00,519 --> 00:18:57,710 technical argument and and that's 521 00:19:02,980 --> 00:19:00,529 actually not the objection to I think 522 00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:02,990 that the that the scientific community 523 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:04,700 has to the idea that we're being visited 524 00:19:08,590 --> 00:19:06,770 it isn't that doggone it there's just no 525 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:08,600 technical way that they could be here I 526 00:19:13,330 --> 00:19:11,330 mean we we started that way at the top 527 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:13,340 of the show it doesn't violate physics 528 00:19:18,970 --> 00:19:16,850 even you know precluding any of these 529 00:19:20,740 --> 00:19:18,980 sort of exotic ideas for high-speed 530 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:20,750 travel I mean they can they can go at 531 00:19:24,610 --> 00:19:22,370 slow speed if they live to be you know 532 00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:24,620 five hundred thousand years before they 533 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:25,820 die if they're machine intelligence 534 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:27,710 they're not biological beings at all 535 00:19:31,419 --> 00:19:29,510 then they can undertake those trips even 536 00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:31,429 with chemical rockets I wouldn't 537 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:32,750 recommend it but you know they could do 538 00:19:36,940 --> 00:19:34,970 it alright that's not the problem the 539 00:19:39,070 --> 00:19:36,950 problem is the the evidence is so poor 540 00:19:41,769 --> 00:19:39,080 that's the problem just another 541 00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,779 hypothetical people that are skeptic of 542 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:44,240 UFOs basically always say why hasn't one 543 00:19:48,430 --> 00:19:45,890 landed on the White House lawn I've 544 00:19:51,070 --> 00:19:48,440 heard it you know a hundred times so 545 00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:51,080 what happens if they did land on the 546 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:53,270 White House lawn and et went up and 547 00:19:56,519 --> 00:19:55,250 shook Obama's hand what would happen to 548 00:19:58,510 --> 00:19:56,529 SETI 549 00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:58,520 they'd be evened I'd be surprised that 550 00:20:01,690 --> 00:20:00,320 they have the same gestures that we do 551 00:20:03,940 --> 00:20:01,700 they do in the movies I have to say but 552 00:20:06,090 --> 00:20:03,950 probably in reality shaking in might be 553 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:06,100 the universal symbol of war who knows 554 00:20:11,470 --> 00:20:08,809 what happened well look if they arrived 555 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:11,480 here right in such an unambiguous way 556 00:20:16,389 --> 00:20:13,370 they don't mean no it's just on the 557 00:20:18,190 --> 00:20:16,399 nightly news I think that you know said 558 00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:18,200 he would certainly pivot we would 559 00:20:20,919 --> 00:20:19,190 certainly do something entirely 560 00:20:22,299 --> 00:20:20,929 different because the first thing you'd 561 00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:22,309 want to do is so where did you guys come 562 00:20:25,810 --> 00:20:24,289 from and you know and you probably turn 563 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:25,820 their antennas in that direction but 564 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:27,770 indeed I mean we will have discovered 565 00:20:31,659 --> 00:20:29,570 intelligent life in the universe in fact 566 00:20:33,070 --> 00:20:31,669 not the way we thought if they landed on 567 00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:33,080 the White House lawn I mean that's for 568 00:20:37,029 --> 00:20:35,270 sure hmm I just had to say that because 569 00:20:39,909 --> 00:20:37,039 I always hear that one over and over 570 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:39,919 again I must say I don't but but I think 571 00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:43,170 what what is being meant by that is that 572 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:46,590 why is the evidence not very obvious and 573 00:20:51,470 --> 00:20:49,290 I think that that's a reaction to the 574 00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:51,480 photos that are you know routinely shown 575 00:20:55,550 --> 00:20:53,520 of UFOs and you know they were always 576 00:20:58,060 --> 00:20:55,560 very ambiguous then once I see you're 577 00:21:01,310 --> 00:20:58,070 either ambiguous or they're clearly 578 00:21:04,460 --> 00:21:01,320 photographic effects and said you and so 579 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:04,470 if I mean imagine somebody said you know 580 00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:06,870 I wonder if there are these big airships 581 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:09,390 sort of sailing around the earth you 582 00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:11,730 know with big inflatable things with you 583 00:21:15,290 --> 00:21:13,320 know with motors on the outside that 584 00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:15,300 give them some thrust and allow them to 585 00:21:18,830 --> 00:21:17,280 change direction and so forth I wonder 586 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:18,840 if that's true well you know within 587 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:20,790 within 50 years you'd have a big photo 588 00:21:24,350 --> 00:21:22,530 collection showing you know blimps and 589 00:21:26,150 --> 00:21:24,360 George bulls all around the world and 590 00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:26,160 you could see advertising on the side 591 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:27,630 you could see details on the motors and 592 00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:29,250 so on that photographic evidence would 593 00:21:33,860 --> 00:21:31,950 be pretty compelling but the 594 00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:33,870 photographic evidence of alien 595 00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:35,340 visitation is not compelling because 596 00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:36,720 they're usually very very you know 597 00:21:41,390 --> 00:21:38,580 they're completely detailed as photos 598 00:21:44,810 --> 00:21:41,400 almost all of them I kind of disagree I 599 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:44,820 mean I I had a sighting myself and you 600 00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:47,130 know that kind of changed that's why I'm 601 00:21:52,730 --> 00:21:49,200 doing this podcast you know I mean it to 602 00:21:56,420 --> 00:21:52,740 me it was just something that was 603 00:22:00,050 --> 00:21:56,430 totally unexplainable in any way and I'm 604 00:22:01,610 --> 00:22:00,060 just wondering if if perhaps tonight you 605 00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,620 go home and you drive home and you 606 00:22:05,930 --> 00:22:03,120 actually see something that is just 607 00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:05,940 undeniable would you consider it just a 608 00:22:11,620 --> 00:22:09,000 UFO and if so would you be able to 609 00:22:14,780 --> 00:22:11,630 accept that it's a possibility that it's 610 00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:14,790 extraterrestrial sure of course of 611 00:22:17,420 --> 00:22:16,140 course when you see something and you 612 00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:17,430 don't know what it is which is what 613 00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:18,150 you're talking about 614 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:19,980 right and I've had that experience I've 615 00:22:23,210 --> 00:22:21,330 seen plenty of things that at first at 616 00:22:26,030 --> 00:22:23,220 least I didn't know what they were okay 617 00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:26,040 and hey you know you can say okay you 618 00:22:29,180 --> 00:22:27,360 know that's that's odd I don't know what 619 00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:29,190 it is now there are various 620 00:22:32,150 --> 00:22:30,630 possibilities for what it might be that 621 00:22:34,460 --> 00:22:32,160 I can think of and there probably many 622 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:34,470 more that I am NOT thinking of in 623 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:35,850 particular I saw on one night that 624 00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:37,860 turned out to be a launch from Wallops 625 00:22:42,260 --> 00:22:40,950 Island in Virginia where I was living it 626 00:22:43,910 --> 00:22:42,270 was a rocket launch but I didn't know 627 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:43,920 about those rocket launches so you know 628 00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:45,930 it was very very perplexing to me okay 629 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:47,880 but you know so I'm making my mind 630 00:22:50,930 --> 00:22:49,410 everybody does I'm sure it's sort of a 631 00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:50,940 quick list of things that it could be 632 00:22:54,590 --> 00:22:52,380 good video an aircraft could it be this 633 00:22:56,510 --> 00:22:54,600 could it be that whatever and and one 634 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:56,520 possibility and Alyssa said it's alien 635 00:23:00,140 --> 00:22:57,090 visitation 636 00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:00,150 all right that's possibility but to jump 637 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:01,830 to the conclusion that that's what it is 638 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:03,570 that's what people do all the time now 639 00:23:06,530 --> 00:23:05,190 because it's you know a part of the 640 00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:06,540 popular culture so when you see 641 00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:08,220 something that you don't understand it 642 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:10,380 immediately becomes alien visitors but 643 00:23:15,710 --> 00:23:12,570 there are all these other possibilities 644 00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:15,720 right and indeed you know as you know 645 00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:17,520 there been several Commission's to look 646 00:23:21,890 --> 00:23:18,960 into the UFO phenomena and that was 647 00:23:24,170 --> 00:23:21,900 quite some time ago after the after the 648 00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:24,180 Second World War and into the 1950s and 649 00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:26,100 even the 1960s and what they would do is 650 00:23:29,690 --> 00:23:27,720 they bring together sort of expert 651 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:29,700 panels people that were well versed in 652 00:23:33,860 --> 00:23:31,290 upper atmosphere physics and so forth 653 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:33,870 aviation whatever and and these panels 654 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:35,010 would say all right well give us the 655 00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:36,510 hundred best cases you know the ones 656 00:23:40,790 --> 00:23:38,760 where you have at least some credible 657 00:23:42,650 --> 00:23:40,800 looking evidence and we'll see if we can 658 00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:42,660 figure them out and so they would do 659 00:23:47,390 --> 00:23:45,360 this and typically they would be able to 660 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:47,400 explain 90 percent of them as aircraft 661 00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:50,130 or balloons or whatever the astronomical 662 00:23:54,980 --> 00:23:51,990 objects they could they could figure out 663 00:23:58,100 --> 00:23:54,990 about 90 percent of them typically 10 664 00:23:59,630 --> 00:23:58,110 percent of them they could and what so 665 00:24:02,090 --> 00:23:59,640 many people do I've heard them say this 666 00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:02,100 is that we'll see those 10 percent they 667 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:04,080 can't explain that's where the alien 668 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:05,970 crafts are and that's you know that's 669 00:24:09,260 --> 00:24:07,310 what's called an argument from ignorance 670 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:09,270 because they're saying I don't know what 671 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:11,850 it is so it's proof of aliens you know 672 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:14,610 the local police here solved 65 percent 673 00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:16,530 of the homicides in San Francisco the 674 00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:18,240 other 35 percent they don't solve those 675 00:24:22,340 --> 00:24:20,460 could be you know aliens murdering 676 00:24:25,550 --> 00:24:22,350 people but that would be a very bizarre 677 00:24:28,180 --> 00:24:25,560 conclusion I think that for someone just 678 00:24:31,730 --> 00:24:28,190 to assume that what they see is 679 00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:31,740 extraterrestrial I agree with you on 680 00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:34,470 that part I think what I think is well 681 00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:37,710 something is happening and we don't know 682 00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:40,470 what it is and so the thing that comes 683 00:24:43,910 --> 00:24:42,960 to mind when you talk about 10,000 684 00:24:46,790 --> 00:24:43,920 sightings a year 685 00:24:48,650 --> 00:24:46,800 why isn't there even a very small part 686 00:24:50,450 --> 00:24:48,660 of the government interested in this 687 00:24:53,660 --> 00:24:50,460 like like they are in other countries 688 00:24:56,570 --> 00:24:53,670 for instance in South America there's 689 00:24:58,430 --> 00:24:56,580 government associations actually taking 690 00:25:01,550 --> 00:24:58,440 this serious and why doesn't the u.s. 691 00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:01,560 take it serious well I think that's 692 00:25:06,020 --> 00:25:04,320 simply history you know I think that if 693 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:06,030 the evidence rose to the level of seeing 694 00:25:10,980 --> 00:25:07,690 seemingly the 695 00:25:12,930 --> 00:25:10,990 credible to you no experts in the field 696 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:12,940 of you know atmospheric phenomena I 697 00:25:17,549 --> 00:25:15,090 think that it would be taken seriously 698 00:25:19,860 --> 00:25:17,559 it's not taken seriously in this country 699 00:25:21,539 --> 00:25:19,870 in sense as you say that we don't have 700 00:25:22,649 --> 00:25:21,549 any you know the government isn't 701 00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:22,659 looking into it of course people 702 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:23,440 wouldn't believe what the government 703 00:25:27,899 --> 00:25:26,289 said anyhow that's my take on it seems 704 00:25:28,769 --> 00:25:27,909 that when it comes to UFOs people don't 705 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:28,779 trust the government so they 706 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:30,370 simultaneously don't trust them and then 707 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:32,110 blame them for not investigating which 708 00:25:36,509 --> 00:25:35,110 seems odd but ok I mean the British 709 00:25:37,499 --> 00:25:36,519 aren't looking into it I lived in Europe 710 00:25:39,619 --> 00:25:37,509 for thirteen years none of the 711 00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:39,629 governments in Western Europe I you know 712 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:41,620 encountered seem to be very interested 713 00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:46,330 in it and and so I you know yes some 714 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:47,500 governments are looking into it well 715 00:25:51,090 --> 00:25:49,690 fine I have no objection to looking into 716 00:25:52,529 --> 00:25:51,100 it I think people should look into it if 717 00:25:55,860 --> 00:25:52,539 they feel that there's there's something 718 00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:55,870 there they should they should but I you 719 00:25:59,159 --> 00:25:57,039 know I just haven't seen the evidence 720 00:26:00,960 --> 00:25:59,169 from for me that that's convinced me and 721 00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:00,970 I I have to say I mean there was an 722 00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:02,830 article in The Huffington Post just 723 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:04,870 recently in which the astronomer royal 724 00:26:09,419 --> 00:26:07,600 Martin Rees said you know there's just 725 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:09,429 nothing in this well that's just another 726 00:26:15,779 --> 00:26:12,370 opinion and I just would think with all 727 00:26:17,549 --> 00:26:15,789 of what and if there is radar evidence 728 00:26:19,889 --> 00:26:17,559 you can't deny the radar evidence 729 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:19,899 because there was three on one object 730 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:22,090 and when something can do multiple 731 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:24,970 thousand miles an hour and make a right 732 00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:27,250 angle turn it just seems like there 733 00:26:31,049 --> 00:26:29,200 would be much more curiosity by 734 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:31,059 scientists well the thing is you can 735 00:26:35,730 --> 00:26:33,970 explain the radar the radar sightings in 736 00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:35,740 other ways it turns out that radar radar 737 00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:38,350 you know yeah you know this is 738 00:26:42,210 --> 00:26:40,990 accompanied with visual yeah but the 739 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:42,220 thing is to begin with we have aircraft 740 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:43,690 and go thousands of miles an hour so 741 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:45,129 that per se is not so interesting that 742 00:26:49,289 --> 00:26:47,049 the right angle turns are usually 743 00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:49,299 geometric effects their geometric 744 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:50,769 effects I've talked to radar experts 745 00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:52,330 about this and they say you know this 746 00:26:56,129 --> 00:26:53,679 isn't good evidence either but you know 747 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:56,139 if you if you disagree that's fine and 748 00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:57,970 and a lot of people disagree I mean a 749 00:27:01,379 --> 00:26:59,200 lot of people are gonna disagree with 750 00:27:04,769 --> 00:27:01,389 what I'm saying here I'm sure of it but 751 00:27:05,460 --> 00:27:04,779 look as I say bottom line is really 752 00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:05,470 simple 753 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:08,470 there are thousands and thousands of you 754 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:10,090 know sightings every year that means if 755 00:27:14,279 --> 00:27:12,970 they're ten thousand a year right that 756 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:14,289 means they're thirty a day every hour 757 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:17,200 there's another reported sighting okay 758 00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:18,970 and all you need is one really good one 759 00:27:22,820 --> 00:27:20,790 one good one 760 00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:22,830 that that where the evidence is so 761 00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:25,620 unambiguous as to say that doggone it 762 00:27:28,940 --> 00:27:27,630 let's shove this into the Museum of 763 00:27:31,670 --> 00:27:28,950 Natural History in New York let's just 764 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:31,680 put it in there and and and yet the 765 00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:32,910 Museum of Natural History doesn't do 766 00:27:35,950 --> 00:27:34,560 that and it isn't because the people who 767 00:27:38,030 --> 00:27:35,960 are running a museum figured that the 768 00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:38,040 visitors that the museum just wouldn't 769 00:27:42,170 --> 00:27:39,900 be interested in this of course they 770 00:27:43,310 --> 00:27:42,180 would be interested my gosh this would 771 00:27:45,050 --> 00:27:43,320 be the most interesting thing in the 772 00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:45,060 museum it's just that they don't think 773 00:27:48,770 --> 00:27:46,800 it's very credible it's just that sorry 774 00:27:50,270 --> 00:27:48,780 but you know that that's probably 775 00:27:52,790 --> 00:27:50,280 something else you guys you know just 776 00:27:54,620 --> 00:27:52,800 misinterpreted this so that's that's 777 00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:54,630 really my plea to the the UFO community 778 00:27:57,860 --> 00:27:56,430 is that look you know instead of 779 00:27:58,580 --> 00:27:57,870 complaining that the problem lies 780 00:28:00,800 --> 00:27:58,590 elsewhere 781 00:28:02,210 --> 00:28:00,810 that it's the problem is with the 782 00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:02,220 skeptics and that's what they normally 783 00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:03,750 do they say the problem is with you 784 00:28:07,580 --> 00:28:06,390 scientists you won't look into it or the 785 00:28:08,690 --> 00:28:07,590 problem is with the government because 786 00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:08,700 they've covered up all the good evidence 787 00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:11,910 which is absolutely bizarre I mean how 788 00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,710 is it that the aliens have arranged 789 00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:15,360 everything so that only the government 790 00:28:18,410 --> 00:28:16,860 gets the good evidence how did they do 791 00:28:19,790 --> 00:28:18,420 that they must be in cahoots with our 792 00:28:21,740 --> 00:28:19,800 government in which case maybe they'll 793 00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:21,750 solve the deficit problem or something I 794 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:23,940 mean so instead of saying things like 795 00:28:27,170 --> 00:28:25,890 that you know you it's the problems with 796 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:27,180 you scientists are the problem is with 797 00:28:31,340 --> 00:28:29,370 the government the problem is with the 798 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:31,350 evidence that they should just say look 799 00:28:36,380 --> 00:28:33,210 let's concentrate on getting the very 800 00:28:38,420 --> 00:28:36,390 best evidence so if this is happening so 801 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:38,430 often I mean we surely can design some 802 00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:41,130 sort of instrumentation that will up the 803 00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,510 quality of the evidence and then we can 804 00:28:46,790 --> 00:28:44,640 convince people would you back that oh 805 00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,800 yeah sure absolutely 806 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:49,200 well that's one good thing I've heard 807 00:28:55,670 --> 00:28:51,330 out of use so far I'm joking of course 808 00:28:58,130 --> 00:28:55,680 but one of the things I think of is you 809 00:29:01,030 --> 00:28:58,140 know all the pilots that have chased 810 00:29:03,980 --> 00:29:01,040 them different air forces have chase 811 00:29:07,070 --> 00:29:03,990 unidentified flying objects and have 812 00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:07,080 been outrun and all the testimony out 813 00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:10,980 there and my own personal sighting I do 814 00:29:15,850 --> 00:29:12,960 believe that there is something going on 815 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:15,860 you can't change my mind about that and 816 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:19,010 I'm not going to change your mind either 817 00:29:24,590 --> 00:29:21,330 and I guess that's why we're having this 818 00:29:27,650 --> 00:29:24,600 friendly debate indeed absolutely well 819 00:29:30,830 --> 00:29:27,660 stated so just one other question if you 820 00:29:32,990 --> 00:29:30,840 if you woke up tomorrow morning and you 821 00:29:34,490 --> 00:29:33,000 I don't know maybe banged your head or 822 00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:34,500 something and you said 823 00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,220 I want to take UFOs seriously what would 824 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:40,080 what would happen to your career would 825 00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:42,330 you be a laughingstock do you think oh 826 00:29:45,710 --> 00:29:44,160 no I don't think so I mean that that's 827 00:29:48,050 --> 00:29:45,720 another misperception that somehow 828 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:48,060 people that SETI are told that they 829 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:49,770 better not you know consider the 830 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:51,450 possibility of UFOs because they lose 831 00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:54,930 their job I get that a lot and all you 832 00:29:59,000 --> 00:29:56,310 have to do is work here and you realize 833 00:30:01,610 --> 00:29:59,010 it huh that that's pretty nonsensical 834 00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,620 nobody ever says that there's nobody's 835 00:30:07,070 --> 00:30:03,840 brainwashed here you gotta think of it 836 00:30:08,270 --> 00:30:07,080 this way My heavens but it is true that 837 00:30:09,650 --> 00:30:08,280 if you were to walk the halls here and 838 00:30:11,660 --> 00:30:09,660 ask the scientists how many of you think 839 00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:11,670 that you know we might be being visited 840 00:30:14,420 --> 00:30:13,080 I'm not sure you get a whole lot of 841 00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:14,430 people saying yeah that's possible 842 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:16,710 because you know they look at the 843 00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:19,530 evidence and they they you know they've 844 00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:20,910 gone through all the same sort of 845 00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:22,830 discussion that we've had here today 846 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:25,200 with themselves and they're they're not 847 00:30:28,340 --> 00:30:26,970 convinced but it's not that the you know 848 00:30:30,260 --> 00:30:28,350 their employer is telling them what to 849 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:30,270 think anymore than the the you know 850 00:30:32,990 --> 00:30:31,650 Stanford University is telling its 851 00:30:34,790 --> 00:30:33,000 faculty what to think look you guys have 852 00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:34,800 got a total line here this is what you 853 00:30:39,710 --> 00:30:36,990 all have to think I mean that's not the 854 00:30:41,570 --> 00:30:39,720 nature of nekkid Emeka organization nor 855 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:41,580 of a research organization which is ours 856 00:30:45,230 --> 00:30:43,530 everybody can think what they want but 857 00:30:47,570 --> 00:30:45,240 what I would do if I were if I thought 858 00:30:49,790 --> 00:30:47,580 that there was a good chance of this 859 00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:49,800 being true then I would have did I would 860 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:51,360 design some very good experiments that 861 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:54,210 could you know somehow come up with with 862 00:30:58,910 --> 00:30:57,450 better imagery or better data and that 863 00:31:00,020 --> 00:30:58,920 doesn't seem to happen I think that that 864 00:31:02,570 --> 00:31:00,030 would be a good thing to do it's hard 865 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:02,580 because the phenomena are intermittent 866 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:05,250 that's right and so that makes it harder 867 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:06,810 but that doesn't mean that it's 868 00:31:12,650 --> 00:31:09,650 impossible I'll tell you the reaction of 869 00:31:14,150 --> 00:31:12,660 one of my academic colleagues in in 870 00:31:15,710 --> 00:31:14,160 Europe when we were talking about this 871 00:31:17,630 --> 00:31:15,720 and he said look Seth if I thought there 872 00:31:19,460 --> 00:31:17,640 was a 1% chance that any of that UFO 873 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:19,470 stuff were true I would spend a hundred 874 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:21,510 percent of my time working on it so 875 00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:24,090 there is a barrier here in that you know 876 00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:27,360 people in in in research don't think 877 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:28,830 that there's enough they're there to 878 00:31:32,750 --> 00:31:31,170 spend their time on it so that's a 879 00:31:35,540 --> 00:31:32,760 problem and if you can come up with that 880 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:35,550 enough they're there then you get tens 881 00:31:40,220 --> 00:31:37,130 of thousands of people working on it 882 00:31:43,790 --> 00:31:40,230 mm-hmm I agree I believe you know the 883 00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:43,800 number one problem is the sightings are 884 00:31:47,790 --> 00:31:46,320 intermittent and there's no place to 885 00:31:50,010 --> 00:31:47,800 hang out too 886 00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:50,020 you actually see them you know you say 887 00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:52,180 there's 30 a day but we have a massive 888 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:54,880 planet in and so it is a very difficult 889 00:31:59,490 --> 00:31:57,610 thing to actually study when you can't 890 00:32:01,740 --> 00:31:59,500 grab ahold of it I understand that part 891 00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:01,750 of it yeah that's true 892 00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:04,480 I also have to say that sometimes 893 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:05,800 there's a reluctance on the part of 894 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:07,210 people who think that this is happening 895 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:09,610 to do that I was in conversation with a 896 00:32:13,170 --> 00:32:11,770 couple of gentlemen in Boulder Colorado 897 00:32:14,430 --> 00:32:13,180 who claimed that they could see these 898 00:32:16,860 --> 00:32:14,440 things every day and they had videos 899 00:32:18,450 --> 00:32:16,870 they showed me and they were they were 900 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:18,460 pointing their video cameras by the way 901 00:32:22,050 --> 00:32:20,890 toward the southeast which happens to be 902 00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:22,060 in the direction of Denver International 903 00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:24,190 Airport but they claimed that they could 904 00:32:27,330 --> 00:32:26,020 see these things every day and and that 905 00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:27,340 they knew they were UFOs because they 906 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:28,510 were moving very fast 907 00:32:32,460 --> 00:32:30,370 that's a frequent claim that they were 908 00:32:33,810 --> 00:32:32,470 moving much faster than any aircraft but 909 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:33,820 in order to know whether they're moving 910 00:32:37,890 --> 00:32:36,070 very fast you need to know the range you 911 00:32:39,540 --> 00:32:37,900 need to know how far away they are so 912 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:39,550 what I suggested to these guys was they 913 00:32:42,450 --> 00:32:41,290 say once you get to you know can you see 914 00:32:43,980 --> 00:32:42,460 these things often they say we can see 915 00:32:46,620 --> 00:32:43,990 them every day I said so why don't you 916 00:32:49,020 --> 00:32:46,630 just take two video cameras space your 917 00:32:51,450 --> 00:32:49,030 guns your cells say a mile apart you 918 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:51,460 know use cell phones or whatever to stay 919 00:32:55,530 --> 00:32:53,110 in touch and aim at the same part of the 920 00:32:57,810 --> 00:32:55,540 sky until you pick one up and do it on a 921 00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:57,820 cloudy day so you can do the simple 922 00:33:00,960 --> 00:32:59,440 geometry to figure out how far away this 923 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:00,970 thing is and then you get the real speed 924 00:33:05,550 --> 00:33:03,730 and they didn't want to do it well I 925 00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:05,560 would I would just discount people like 926 00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:07,360 that I've heard a number of times about 927 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:09,940 people that are aiming you know cameras 928 00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:12,370 toward ends up being toward an airport 929 00:33:15,510 --> 00:33:13,840 and the lights and everything like that 930 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:15,520 you know I mean I would just discount 931 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:17,290 that myself I wouldn't even think that 932 00:33:20,820 --> 00:33:19,570 yeah well the impossible thing to me was 933 00:33:24,030 --> 00:33:20,830 that they didn't want to do the 934 00:33:26,550 --> 00:33:24,040 experiment that's distressing yeah well 935 00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:26,560 that's just that case in particular I'm 936 00:33:30,390 --> 00:33:28,720 going to ask you one last question and I 937 00:33:33,090 --> 00:33:30,400 really do appreciate your time and that 938 00:33:34,590 --> 00:33:33,100 is is there any case that you've ever 939 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:34,600 heard of that you would find just 940 00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:37,170 totally perplexing when it comes to UFOs 941 00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:39,510 no I don't think so there well 942 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:41,560 perplexing yes there are there's some 943 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:42,730 things you just can't explain 944 00:33:45,930 --> 00:33:44,110 I mean sometimes people will send me 945 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:45,940 photos most of the photos I actually 946 00:33:49,410 --> 00:33:47,260 can't explain because photography 947 00:33:51,450 --> 00:33:49,420 happens to be a longtime hobby of mine 948 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:51,460 so I recognized you know internal 949 00:33:54,930 --> 00:33:53,050 reflections in the lenses and so for 950 00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:54,940 like things like that that's that's a 951 00:34:01,379 --> 00:33:58,330 very frequent thing but sometimes you 952 00:34:03,029 --> 00:34:01,389 know they're just some light they they 953 00:34:05,069 --> 00:34:03,039 have or it maybe it's a video or you see 954 00:34:06,509 --> 00:34:05,079 some some sort of bright object moving 955 00:34:08,519 --> 00:34:06,519 across the sky and it's maybe five 956 00:34:10,740 --> 00:34:08,529 pixels across but there's a there's no 957 00:34:13,589 --> 00:34:10,750 detail in it and you know I don't know 958 00:34:15,029 --> 00:34:13,599 what it is okay so I see that but you 959 00:34:16,619 --> 00:34:15,039 know that the fact that I don't know 960 00:34:20,669 --> 00:34:16,629 what it is isn't very convincing is it 961 00:34:22,379 --> 00:34:20,679 say what would be convincing me again to 962 00:34:24,839 --> 00:34:22,389 the Native Americans sitting around on 963 00:34:26,460 --> 00:34:24,849 Watling Island in 1492 and they see 964 00:34:28,799 --> 00:34:26,470 something on the horizon which is just a 965 00:34:31,319 --> 00:34:28,809 blob at first but you know an hour later 966 00:34:33,089 --> 00:34:31,329 seems to have a couple of masts and some 967 00:34:34,319 --> 00:34:33,099 flags and some sails and things that you 968 00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:34,329 don't know the words for those things 969 00:34:38,099 --> 00:34:35,950 but you know it has structure it has 970 00:34:39,809 --> 00:34:38,109 detail and pretty soon it's close enough 971 00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:39,819 that they can make nice drawings of it 972 00:34:44,579 --> 00:34:42,250 and so boards on that sort of evidence 973 00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:44,589 you know would be more than just you 974 00:34:47,490 --> 00:34:46,089 know I don't know what it is that sort 975 00:34:50,279 --> 00:34:47,500 of evidence would say I don't know what 976 00:34:52,049 --> 00:34:50,289 it is and it's something really peculiar 977 00:34:53,849 --> 00:34:52,059 that I've never seen on the ocean before 978 00:34:56,460 --> 00:34:53,859 and that's the kind of thing that's 979 00:34:59,130 --> 00:34:56,470 missing okay well thank you so much I 980 00:35:01,170 --> 00:34:59,140 really appreciate your time well it's 981 00:35:03,450 --> 00:35:01,180 been a pleasure Martin all right and you